Marc Bashoor Ep

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IntroductionIgniting Your Soul: The Journey Begins

It's time to ignite your soul and unlock your full potential. Join us on Beneath the Helmet, the podcast exploring firefighters health and wellness. Hosted by retired Fire Chief Arjuna George, our podcast is the perfect place to start your journey towards becoming the best version of yourself. So come on, let's join the conversation and find out what sets your soul on fire.

Arjuna George: All right.

Episode 40: A Special Shoutout and Community Engagement

Arjuna George: Welcome back, everyone. This is episode number 40, Beneath the Helmet, season two. A huge shout out to everyone who's been following our podcast. I got some good news that our website is totally revamped and totally changed. So if you'd like to check it out, BeneaththeHelmet. ca, you'll see lots of great new features for you as the listener or the watcher of Beneath the Helmet.

So, be sure to check it out, and I'd love to have you, uh, [00:01:00] join our community on Facebook as well. Brand new community that's launched, and it's just, uh, like minded individuals, like yourself, who want to share stories about, uh, their own journeys through mental health, through leadership in the fire service, uh, and other first responder agencies.

And also a chance for you to learn from others who, uh, share great content, posts, and it's just a well supported community that's, that's safe.

A Heartfelt Message to Mark Bashoor

Arjuna George: Today I got a chance to sit down with Lexapol's FireRescue1 Executive Editor, Mark Bashour. So Mark, uh, as you may or may not know, he's, uh, in the hospital right now.

He's got some, some medical challenges he's facing. So I wanted to bump Mark up into the queue. to lift his spirits up a little bit. So hopefully, uh, you can all comment down below, send him messages, and make sure that, uh, he sees that you're out there supporting him as well. So, Mark Bashoor, I hope you have a speedy recovery and get home soon.

Diving Deep into Trust, Honor, and Ethics in Firefighting

Arjuna George: So, uh, today's conversation is, is [00:02:00] very kind of niched into what Mark's passion is all about. Uh, he's got three pillars that we're going to talk about, and we're going to talk about trust, we're going to talk about honor, and we're going to talk about ethics within the fire service. Um, we're going to chat about some things that are getting us in trouble as firefighters and in the fire service.

I really think you're going to enjoy the nuggets and the wisdom that this very prestigious leader in North America fire service has to share with us today. So sit back, relax, enjoy the show. Until next time, stay well.

Marker

Arjuna George: All right. Welcome back, everyone.

Mark Bashoor's Inspiring Journey and Acting Ventures

Arjuna George: I got Mark Bashor here.

Marc B: Bashoor. Did I say that right? Bashoor, Bashoor,

Arjuna George: Bashoor. Bashoor. Mark Bashoor. Mark, Mark Bashoor on the show today. Uh, coming all the way from Florida this morning. So, welcome to the show, Mark.

Marc B: Thanks, Chief. How are you doing today?

Arjuna George: Fantastic. Nice and early morning and, uh, get a chance to, to talk to, uh, you know, one of the fire service experts in, in North America.

So, it's a pleasure to have

Marc B: you on there. There's no experts. We're all in this together, but I appreciate it.

Arjuna George: Thank you. Well, you have a very distinguished career, so I want to recognize that as well. [00:03:00] So Chief, tell us a little bit about your history and kind of, um, your story and what brought you to what you're doing today for the fire service.

Marc B: Uh, you know, to tell the story, I really have to start from when I was a kid. Um, and I'll make it quick, but, uh, you know, my father was a World War II veteran. Uh, when he came back from the war, he was, uh, both a Baptist minister and a United States Postal Service mailman for 30 years concurrently. He did those two things concurrently.

Um, so as I grew up, you know, my house was, uh, household was pretty strict. Um, you know, I was always afraid of the post office belt and things today that would get parents in trouble, right? Uh, were the way I grew up. And, um, in, in the evolution of that, uh, was what introduced me to the topic we're going to talk about today, uh, which was, you know, how people mold trust, honor, ethics in, [00:04:00] in their life.

Um, because I saw it every day from my dad, whether it was the war stories or, uh, the pastoring, uh, and the things that went on with that. So he was a pastor and a mailman concurrently for 30 years. Uh, I'm the middle son. Um, fast forward. to sort of today because two of us are retired, but fast forward to today.

Um, my older brother was a mailman in Washington state and my younger brother is a preacher in California. Uh, and then there was me. So they fell from, uh, branches of that tree. And I kind of came from a service branch and, uh, here we are. I started as a volunteer. in Prince George's County, Maryland in 1981.

And then, you know, kind of the rest is history really. I stayed with Prince George's County for 30 years altogether. Rose through the ranks, came on the job as a paid firefighter, worked in dispatch, rose through the ranks, [00:05:00] ultimately became chief of department in 2010 and stayed in that until 2017, then went to West Virginia, was an emergency services director there for five years.

And, um, then ultimately down to Florida, where I was a Public Safety Director and Fire Chief. They wanted me to build a combination department out of 10 independent volunteer departments. So that's, that's what I did. I got them up off the ground and then, retired, if you will, from that, uh, to where now as Executive Editor for FireRescue1.

com and FireChief. com. I write, do the video work, and, uh, do, you know, I do a lot of different things, speak at conferences. Uh, do some acting on the side too, but, uh, that's a whole different, whole different thing. So that's it in a nutshell. Thanks for

Arjuna George: asking. Yeah. I've, I've seen the, some posts that you've put out there on social about your acting, maybe a brief, what's, what's, is that like a little hobby that you enjoy?

Marc B: Something I started in 2018 and it was just, uh, I was comfortable in the, in front of the [00:06:00] camera and, uh, somebody said something to me one day about it. I, I researched a website. And the rest is history. Probably 20 different commercials that, you know, people see me from time to time on commercials and I'll get a text or, um, and probably a dozen different movies.

None of them, you know, are, uh, a box office, uh, hits, but, uh, they're out there and, um, I'm having fun doing that. And I'm still doing that. Oh, very cool. We'll we'll see. You never know where, where it leads. A lot of, uh, famous actors, there's a lot of famous actors out there that didn't start until they were in their fifties and sixties.

So, you know, maybe, maybe I'm one of them. Maybe I'm not.

Arjuna George: Yeah. A hundred percent. Are you going to be in a Hallmark Christmas movie that I might see this week? I was in, uh,

Marc B: nine Hallmark movies last year. And, uh, so, uh, you just have to look for them because they're kind of all over the place. But, uh, I was either a police officer on a beach walking back and forth on a crime scene or.

Um, and in some cases there was a speaking role, but you know, like I said, none of them are bidding roles. They're all [00:07:00] minor. Oh, that's

Arjuna George: awesome. That's a fun, fun part of life. Good for you. Good for you. Good for you. Well, you have a very distinguished career, and I think there's lots of nuggets to kind of draw out of our conversation today.

Building Trust: The Cornerstone of Firefighting

Arjuna George: But I kind of want to have it streamlined to, to those three kind of main pillars that you talked about. So let's kick it off with trust. Um, I'd love to hear some stories about how you've built trust over the years and maybe some areas that were a challenge for you.

Marc B: Yeah. And when I talk about trust, it's, it's multifaceted, right?

It's, it's not just about trusting your neighbor or trusting yourself. Um, it's, it's, About those things, but it's really in the fire service perspective about the public trust and their ability to trust us to do the right thing. And a lot of what I find and what when I go and speak different departments, I'll be in Pennsylvania in a couple weeks and then New York, New York, New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland for a series of places where we're going to [00:08:00] talk a lot about.

Uh, the public trust and the things that we do, uh, to get ourselves in trouble, uh, and then how we can set ourselves on a better path, uh, whether that is from mutual aid agreements or, uh, you know, doing away with the chip on the shoulder of it's my first do or those kind of things, you know, when the public dials 911.

All they know is that we're going to show up. They don't care whether they're paid or volunteer, black or white, man or woman. They don't care if your firehouse is five miles away or 50 miles away. They care that someone's going to show up and it's going to be the right person to do the right things. Uh, and, and too many times we don't live by that.

Uh, and then, you know, that whole trust factor wraps into, uh, our ability to, to trust our crew members, and, uh, that we've all trained, uh, to the right, uh, measure, and that if one of us gets ourselves in trouble, and I don't mean legal trouble, because if you get yourself in legal trouble, you, you [00:09:00] need to deal with it.

You need to deal with that appropriately. I'm not going to come get you out of trouble. That, that's not trust. That's, that's being a parent, and, you know, Um, you know, we have a 9 1 1 business to run, whether we like it or not, so we've got to make sure that we're doing everything we can to keep people from getting into those situations, uh, where they find themselves violating that trust.

So, you know, that's really a big piece of it. And I think that if, if people can think for all of these things, if people can think in terms of, uh, you mentioned the triad, you know, I call it the personal success tetrahedron. If they can think in terms of their physical strength, which is both, um, physical strength and nutrition, but the physical strength.

their moral focus and their mental toughness. If they can get those three things, that triad, to work together and do all the right things to build that strength, then the bottom side of the tetrahedron is the mission that's going to That's going to take care of itself because you're taking [00:10:00] care of yourself.

So, uh, we work when, when I talk to folks, we work on, uh, methods to do that, whether it's talking to them about establishing a personal mission statement, uh, whether it's talking to them about, uh, uh, leadership steps for success and understanding that the. You know, sometimes there's a couple of those, or sometimes there's things that you're going to want to do that you just should not do and vice versa.

Sometimes there's going to be things that you don't want to do that you're going to need to do. You know, those are going to be, those two things right there for Chiefs are one of the hardest. things is that as they come up through and we can talk about building trust within your organization. Those two things are two of the hardest things for chiefs to understand that, you know, sometimes you're just going to have to do something you don't want to do, but it's the right thing to do and vice versa.

Don't do the wrong thing. So, yeah, you know, if we can, if we can have people build towards [00:11:00] those leadership skills, build towards that personal mission statement. So. You know what and why you're out there. And you know, I didn't just come take a job or I didn't just show up and volunteer. What's your why? I task people to, to think through that.

And if they can think through that and build that within themselves, then they're going to build that trust within their community, which is what that's all about.

Arjuna George: Yeah, I think there's, well, trust is the foundation. I know you talked about the mission, but trust is the foundation for everything else, right?

So if we don't start with trust, which is part of the mission statement and part of our own personal values, everything else is going to be a real challenge to get to a certain point in your life. Yep, absolutely.

Navigating Public Trust and Internal Challenges

Arjuna George: How is, uh, how is the U S right now in public trust?

Marc B: Well, you know, it's, uh, it is interesting to watch things unfold as different, uh, legal cases unfold that task or not task that, um, um, tax.[00:12:00]

Our systems, we see communities becoming anxious about mostly about law enforcement and unfortunately, fire and EMS ends up finding themselves wrapped up in that our challenge is to go back to that tetrahedron and remember, we're there about the mission and our mission does not. As line firefighters, our mission does not involve police work per se.

So there comes a point where we need to understand when it's time to draw back and we need to listen to the command level folks and make sure that we're, you know, we're working within that unified command if that's what we're dealing with or we're reporting back and saying, you know what, this just isn't somewhere we should be.

If we can get our folks to do that and not have them get wrapped up in those legal situations, then I think we'll stay away from that public fray. Uh, fortunately, uh, I think the United States has, uh, not had a, uh, dramatic shift. To where they don't trust fire. And EMS, if you do surveys in the United States historically, uh, now included the fire services is typically one of the most trusted agencies of, of government.

Um, I, I have no notion that that has changed, but I do have, uh, the absolute proof that we're not helping ourselves with the things we're allowing Some of our departments are allowing their staff to do. or some of our staff are doing on their off time and the things that end up getting wrapped up in the news and reported in media, we don't help ourselves with that.

And the more that we allow that to become the pervasive feeling, the more public trust is going to erode. So we've got to make sure that we're not We're staying on top of background checks. We're staying on top of all the things that have to do with our folks in public trust to make sure that, you know, that erosion of public trust isn't something that affects the fire service.

Right now, I think we're [00:13:00] still one of those most trusted agencies of government.

Arjuna George: What would be a couple from your experience of areas that do get us in trouble with the public that maybe it would be good to bring to people's attention?

Marc B: There's been several lately that, um, I've seen, there's a couple of different things we'll talk about.

One is, uh, vehicle driving. You know, we have this, we, when I say we, I mean the fire service in general, right? We have this notion that we own the road and we don't. Okay. Um, nobody owns the road per se. We will get into that whole discussion. That could be a whole nother show for you. But, um, we get to have this notion that we own the road and I just put a new video into one of my presentations of an ambulance coming right through a red light that gets broadsided by a bus.

and flips the ambulance over. Uh, you know, the bus had a green light, the ambulance had a red light. We, we [00:14:00] can't continue to, and I've got two fire trucks in a major city that hit each other and enter an intersection. One of them had a green light, one of them had a red light. Um, you know, we can't continue to allow those things to be the things that our people see when we're driving.

We have to respect the road and the rules of the road just as much as, as Grandma Jones or Mr. Smith do. And if we If we don't drive that home to our people, whether that's seatbelts. There's no excuse for someone getting well, there's almost no excuse for someone getting thrown out of a fire truck that rolls over.

Sure, catastrophic failure of a seat belt system. I get it. But if you're seat belted in, uh, it's highly unlikely you're going to get thrown out of one of those vehicles and then have that vehicle roll over on top of you because you just got thrown out of it. Um, seat belts are important. Speed is important.

Every jurisdiction is a little different in what they allow over a speed limit. Due caution is those words that a lawyer is, uh, [00:15:00] You're going to look at where you're using due caution. Um, you know, red lights are pretty straightforward. There's not a lot of gray area in a red light. And I think if we, you know, so that's one area when we talk about what are the things that erode the trust in us is if people continue to see fire trucks and ambulances blowing through intersections like they own the road, people are not going to, you know, continue to react positively to us if that's all they see from us.

Uh, the other, and again, I, I have, uh, multiples of, um, situations where, um, firefighters are involved in a firefight of some kind or a, um, a firefighting operation or even medical calls and, um, things come up missing from a home, uh, several where a patient was put onto a cot and, uh, and in that cot, they had a, A clip of money in the clip of [00:16:00] money came up missing and a lot of times it's not the fire department's fault, but sometimes it is, and we should never be in a position where we're allowing our people to either get away with that number one, but number two, we should be make sure that we're bringing people on that aren't going to have that mindset.

Their mindset is going to be, I'm here to protect. Uh, that public trust and that public public trust is a definition says that, you know, basically we will do no more harm than has already been done. So when we show up at a home, we're there at the right time at the right place at the right time with the right people and stuff to do the right thing.

But ultimately, the definition is that we'll do no more harm than has already been done. And if we end up getting ourselves in a situation where things are stolen, or things come up missing and we have no explanation for it, well, then we violated that trust. So, um, that's a big one. And then the third one that's really something I, uh, I try to talk to fire departments about across the country is this whole notion of, [00:17:00] uh, mutual aid or first due, uh, paid versus volunteer.

Again, when someone calls 911, they don't care. Um, they want the right people to show up. to do the right things. And I talk about a case in Pennsylvania, ironically, a case where, uh, it was a fatal house fire in 2022. And, uh, it was in a section of a, uh, town that was all volunteer, but it bordered, and when I say bordered, directly across the street was a city.

Uh, and that city paid department had two firehouses within two miles, more or less. of that scene. The closest volunteer house was, uh, five miles away. And then the mutual aid companies that they called, which weren't automatic, they were, you know, they called them after the fact once they knew they had a fire, they were 25 minutes away.

Uh, yet there were two fully paid companies within two miles. So, you know, [00:18:00] even if you give them 30 miles an hour, that's, you know, three to two to four minutes that, uh, those companies could have been there. Um, and unfortunately, that's a chance that that resident will never have. We'll never know whether that resident could have benefited from that, but I highly suspect they could have.

Uh, so that whole notion of mutual aid and city boundaries, and I know there's lawyers involved. I know there's, there's, um, insurance issues involved. There's all kinds of liability things involved. Uh, at the end of the day, the fire doesn't care, and the 911 caller doesn't care, and someone's going to end up paying for it.

Uh, I don't want our fire departments to be the ones caught up in the middle of that, and unfortunately, we find ourselves caught up in that all the time.

Arjuna George: Yeah, it irks me every time I see some bad news about either a firefighter arson or theft or sexual assaults and harassment. It's like, it just irks me every time I see that.

It's just, that is not who

Marc B: we are. [00:19:00] Um, right. It's not. And, and the, the really unfortunate thing is I've had some people ask, why don't you show us the good things? The good things don't make the media. Yes. Let's face it. Every once in a while you'll get a good story, but it makes local news. And unless someone sends me that, I can't capture it because I can't watch every 50 states TV for local news.

It's the things that make national headlines, uh, or those sensational things, and they're typically not good. Yeah, I agree. So, it is what it is. Yeah.

Mission-Critical: Fostering Trust Within the Organization

Arjuna George: I, I, well, I think the, the public trust is, is number one, but I also believe there's an element, and, and you mentioned it, of, of trust within the organization.

Any, any tips to build trust within an organization with your own crew, with the, with the chief, with the unions, any

Marc B: thought there? Uh, absolutely. Um, you know, first and foremost it, I, I'll go back to the mission statement. It, it all starts with, um, when I've talked about the [00:20:00] individual, uh, personal mission statement, the organization needs to have its own mission statement, and it doesn't need to be some long paragraph on the wall that nobody has any idea what it says.

Um, I brought both to Prince George's County and then down to Florida. Um, our mission statements in those organizations was one word, and that's service. That's all people need to understand when it comes to mission. Sure, when it comes to budget documents and all the other things where I have to justify to elected officials why we need, you know, money X, Y, and Z.

Sure, there are bullets that talk about what all of those, uh, different, uh, benchmarks are and service levels need to be and all those different things that go into making the mission, making the service, uh, work out. But at the end of the day, the organization has to have a solid mission statement, and it needs to make sure that everybody knows what that mission statement is, and then they need to live by it.

You can't be a service agency one day, and a, um, you know, pick something, a dog groomer, the next day, and expect that your employees are going to have any respect for the organization. [00:21:00] So the organization needs to pick what that mission statement looks like, and they need to deliver on that. They need to value what.

the employees and volunteers bring to the table, not just value what they say, but value what they bring to the table. Um, you know, there's a lot that's been said about DEI and diversity, equity, and inclusion, uh, that, um, you know, a lot of people rolled their eyes at, but at the end of the day, it's, it's truth.

We need to value each other's. opinions, and we need to value each other's cultures and histories that we bring to the table. Um, I'll go back to what I said before, though, because there's always a qualifier. Grandma Jones doesn't care. She doesn't care whether you're a Christian, whether you're a Muslim, whether you're Jewish, whether you're black, white, whatever.

When she calls 9 1 1, she needs you to show up. And we need to make sure that our organizations are [00:22:00] geared that way, and that, uh, they know that they value what the people bring to the table, and they value what those cultural differences are, but that their people also value that, that service mission, um, and then communicate to your people.

One of the biggest things I see, and I'm going to, I'm going to, this is a double edged sword, right? So I'm going to throw the sword back at, at people. One of the biggest things I see out of organizations, and I'll ask them in my bigger presentations, I'll ask them, uh, in between the first section and second section, we'll talk about what are the two biggest issues affecting your organization.

And I'm not asking them to blurt it out because, you know, you'll get all kinds of. Um, all over the place stuff, but I ask 'em to put it on paper anonymously. I don't wanna ask their chief about it. I just ask them, what are the two biggest or most significant issues affecting your department? And then in between the breaks, I, I analyze what people have put [00:23:00] down and we spend 15 to 30 minutes talking about what those issues are.

That's one of the things I don't see departments doing. It's not just asking people what's the biggest issues in the department, but it's communicating with their people. Giving them the opportunity to say, Hey, Chief, uh, you know, I think if we could do this, then that might get better. Just, you know, anything like that.

Uh, that communication, though, is, is absolutely a two way street. And, um, I, I called it when I came into Prince George's County as chief, we were still, when I first came in, we were still sending paper documents out for everything. Every order, every memo, every, you name it, it went out as a paper document.

And if there was a volunteer organization, A volunteer and paid in the same house. Each house would get three different sets of the same paper. The chief, the president, the career staff. So I called it the Paper [00:24:00] Reduction Act of, uh, it was 2011 and we stopped doing that. Everything went by email. Everybody in the organization paid volunteer.

This goes back to valuing your people. Everybody in the organization was assigned a county email address. It took a while to get it on the volunteer side, but we were able to get it. They were all signed a county email address and everybody got the same communication, whether it was from the chief or from the office, the fire marshal, whoever, they all got the same information at the same time.

So the, the double edge of that store was people got to look at their email now, where before they were waiting for the paper to show up in the mail, sitting back with the, you know, smoking their cigar or whatever, which you can't do in a firehouse anymore, but they were, um, uh, waiting for that paper to show up.

Now they got to look at their email and realize that there's no more of this. We're going to give it two weeks because everybody's got to get the paper. [00:25:00] Everybody's got to have time for it to get through the system and get the paper. It comes like that in an email. It is now policy or whatever the date is of the policy.

So people have to read their email. So I had a lot of success in communicating with our people by email. And if they had a really important issue and they needed to email me directly, email me directly. So, but make sure that you already vetted that through your chain of command before you come to me with some, you know, uh, I'll call it trivial before you come to me with some trivial thing.

Because the first thing I'm going to ask you on that is, have you spoken to your supervisor? So it wasn't a, uh, open door like, uh, Oh my God, the chief can, anybody can talk to the chief. It was an open door. But there was still a door and you needed to make sure that people respected that from the communication perspective.

But if the organization can communicate with their people, value their people, give them [00:26:00] access to the information and not try to hide everything or make everything some big conspiracy of whatever. They'll go a long way towards building the trust within the organization. Then, company officers have to do the same thing.

You know, I had a battalion chief one time, we had a significant, uh, safety investigation from an incident. It had a battalion chief come in with a training program that we, we collectively came up with. And when I say we collectively, we had a large, uh, team of people that was involved in. This training program to bring everybody under the same page to avoid some of the problems that were identified in the safety investigation report.

And it was some controversial stuff from the way Prince Georges County used to do things. Well, the battalion chief came in and as, as some people would right away think he threw it on a table and said, here you go guys. It's from the chief. It's something we gotta do. I don't believe in it, but you know, whatever.

[00:27:00] It's what we gotta do. So.

Building Trust and Communication in Fire Departments

Marc B: What did that do to the people, right? I mean, we communicated it, but our line supervisor, or in this case, our chief officer, uh, didn't take it and deliver the message in an appropriate or proper way. So we've got to make sure that our, our line officers. are part of that trust network and that they're building that trust network with us.

And if we have differences, we're talking about that in our chiefs meetings and not on the engine room floor where we're throwing something down saying, I don't believe in it. Um, so I, you know, I think that's probably the biggest way organizations can, uh, improve in that triad of trust. is, uh, to communicate with their people and value what their people bring to the table.

Yes. I,

Arjuna George: I agree a hundred percent.

The Importance of Open Door Policies and Chain of Command

Arjuna George: I love how you address the, the open door. 'cause I, I know for myself and I, I know a lot of other chiefs that. Open door is, is, is great for communication, but it's also exhausting if you don't manage it, [00:28:00] right? Yeah, there's still, and your management style of that, I think is very appropriate, right? If, Hey, have you talked to your, your line officer?

Have you talked to your captain, your lieutenant? Um, cause that's, that really frees it up and allows you to do the important stuff, right? Versus like you say, the, those menial little. Yeah.

Marc B: And you don't dismiss someone just because they call you. I mean, people aren't going to feel valued if you dismiss them, but they also need to follow the chain of command and, you know, they need to make sure that they're doing the right thing on their end, um, all along the way.

And I think we had some good success

Arjuna George: with that. Yeah. And on the flip side, if the officers are not getting the experience of managing those things, how are they ever going to be, uh, proficient at that? So if they never get the opportunity, so. Absolutely.

Diving Deep into Ethics and Moral Choices

Arjuna George: So I'd love to dive a little bit into ethics. Um, ethics to me is, is a pretty, pretty important aspect of life.

And, and part of the reason I left the fire service, uh, was a bit of moral injury. Uh, so that kind of [00:29:00] plays into the ethical part of it. And I'd love to hear your parts of like, what, why are you so passionate about ethics in the fire service? And what can we learn from that?

Marc B: So, I go back to my upbringing and, uh, understanding and seeing what went on in the church and how that, um, uh, shaped my understanding of strong ethical, um, character in not only in individuals, um, but in organizations.

And. I've carried that into what I do, um, at work and, you know, there's a lot of talk about higher education and education in general and education is important. Don't get me wrong. I am not your three master's degree, uh, fire chief. That's not me. Um, master's degrees, bachelor's degrees, associate's degrees don't necessarily make you smart.

They make you educated. [00:30:00] Um, you've, you've got to take that education and take that development of everything that you do and build it into, um, a life that values the, uh, the experiences that you've been through, but also values doing the right thing. And, you know, when you talk about ethics, um, there's no one book on the shelf.

There's no plaque on the wall. There's no degree certificate that I'm going to be able to point to tell you what ethics means. Ultimately, when you're, when you look at the core of ethics, it may not be illegal, but you have to decide whether it's the right thing to do. And, um, you know, I liken it to, um, what, what I give people is the wall judge.

Okay, so I tell them to pick a point on the wall. So in, in, um, in [00:31:00] this particular show, I'm going to look at the word fire that's right behind your head. Okay, that's gonna be my wall judge. And if you're talking to me and you're saying, Chief, we need to do X, Y, Z. And I don't really know, but I'm listening to you and I'm thinking about it.

I'm looking at the word fire. And if, if that, that's my wall judge, and if my wall judge looks at me and kind of shrugs her shoulders or gives me the thumbs up, then, you know, that's my sixth sense saying, okay, this is probably a good thing, but if that wall judge goes, are you freaking crazy? You know, looks at me and gives me, and I get that feeling, it's probably time to step back, take that step back and think about, and maybe I say to you.

Thanks, Chief. I'm gonna I'm gonna chew on that for a bit. Let me think about that. You've got to be able to process that in real time, because people come to you and they want answers, you know, like this. They want answers right away. You can't always give answers right away.

The Personal Impact of Tragedy and Ethical Decision-Making

Marc B: You know, that wall judge, I go [00:32:00] back to my parents, and I'll tell a quick story about Uh, Me as a Young Volunteer.

You know, my parents would always say, and I guarantee there's people out there that can relate to this, my parents would always say, uh, when I would say, Well, Johnny did it, and they would say, Well, if, um, I gotta take this phone call, so. Yep, yep, all good,

Arjuna George: all good, all good. Hey Ellery, how are you?

Marc B: Okay, how long you figure before you're here?

20 minutes or so. Okay. All right. Thanks. All right. All right. So about 2025 minutes. I got my gas guy coming. All right. Um, you ready? Rock and roll. So I think back to my parents and my parents would, um, when I would say, well, Johnny gets to do it. And they would say what they would say, well, if Johnny jumped off a cliff, would you jump after him?

You know, of course, as a young kid, I go, maybe, I don't know. So I go back to that wall judge is my parents over my shoulder going, you know, are you going to do that? Um, when I was a young volunteer at the age of 16, I took firefighting and EMT right away. Uh, I was, so I was riding fire trucks and ambulances very quickly.

So I was still in school and in my senior stretch of high school. So that's ninth, 10th, 11th. Grade 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th grade. Uh, there were 19 of my classmates that died in drunk [00:33:00] driving accidents. I was a young volunteer picking up many of them and by picking them up, I mean, on the ambulance, usually on the ambulance, picking them up and I was picking them up dead.

I wasn't picking them up and saving them or, or able to help them in any way. I was picking them up dead. Some of them were good friends. Some of them I didn't know. We had 600 people, you know, graduating, so I didn't know everybody there, but some of them I knew. And as a individual, that was certainly a pivotal time in my life where alcohol was a big deal for teenagers, obviously.

Um, that was the time where Mothers Against Drunk Driving became a thing, um, and, and it came out of that environment. And I was at that pivotal time in my life, and I had that wall judge, and my parents, And I kept thinking back of, well, if Johnny jumped off a cliff, would you jump after him? And I was at that point in my life where I had to decide, was I going to follow those 19 people [00:34:00] off the road?

Because I don't think that any one of the 19 of them jumped in the car and thought, I'm gonna go kill myself today. But that's what happened. And they made a decision to drink and drive. They didn't understand the consequences of what they were doing. Uh, and I I set myself about that as a mission, so I, I don't drink.

I don't just, uh, I never have. Uh, from that point forward, I've made the decision that I'm not going to, um, to, to be a drinker. And, Um, that goes back to, you know, we talked a long, long time ago in this about practice what you preach, uh, you know, when I preach, um, honor in, in what you do and the ethics of what you do, I don't just talk about not drinking and driving.

I don't drink and drive. You know, I, I do wear my seatbelt all the time. You know, I'm, I'm by no means am I an angel in the world. Okay. Let's, let's be clear about that. [00:35:00] But I am doing the best I can to be as ethically present as I can, uh, you know, and if you want to put it in firefighters terms, we talk about what this wall judge is and whether it's the right thing to do.

I think this is firefighter terms. Okay. So as I say this, I think all of us have been around the firehouse and looked at somebody and said, well, look at that idiot, whatever the situation was. So maybe your role judge needs to be you looking at that word fire behind you and going, would an idiot do that?

And if the answer is yes, you probably shouldn't do it. So I think that whole ethics piece, we make it more difficult than it is. It really, there is a lot of self control that goes into it, but you also need to learn what's right and wrong. And, um, you know, there's so much today of this, uh, what, what people will call fake news and, and fake everything else.

There's, there's a [00:36:00] whole lot of opportunity for you to make decisions based on what you see and hear, uh, in front of you. And you need to do that. You need to not just dismiss it. Uh, so I think that as we go into Grandma Jones's house and we see that wad of money sitting on the counter, or we see, see that.

um, diamond earring laying there next to, you know, whatever on the dresser while they're doing CPR that we take stock of those things, especially as officers, we take stock of those things and make sure that we do the right thing, uh, which is that we, we don't do any more harm than has already been done.

So whether that's putting those things in a place that aren't visible anymore, whether that's making sure that law enforcement officer gets those things, whatever it is, That's all part of ethics. is, you know, doing that right thing. And, you know, you probably heard it said before, doing the right thing, whether anybody's watching or not.

Yeah. To me, ethics

Arjuna George: [00:37:00] boils down to, it's such a simple thing. It's just do the right thing. Yeah. I know it gets us in trouble and it's hard to define what is the right thing. Um, sometimes.

Marc B: No book on the wall. No black on the wall. So I have an acronym for that. JDTRT. Just do the right thing.

Arjuna George: Nice. Nice. Love it.

I love the, uh, the jury, or not the jury, the judge. I love the judge. That's judge. Yeah.

Honoring the Past and Present: Lessons from Fire Service Incidents

Arjuna George: So you mentioned the word honor, and I know that's a big part of this, this, um, triad that we talk about. So how does honor play into the fire service and how are we to use it?

Marc B: Yeah, so when we look at the, the. So I'm going to talk two different triads.

When we look at the triad of the personal success tetrahedron, we're talking about physical strength, moral focus, and mental toughness. Those are the three triads of that. When I'm talking about values, the core values are the trust, honor, and ethics. And that [00:38:00] honor part of this is not only honoring our past and present, honoring what it is that we do, but honoring the sacrifice of others that came before us.

Um, the sacrifices that they've made, uh, whether it was consciously or unconsciously, um, or, or not consciously, not unconsciously. Um, the sacrifices that they've made, and one of the biggest ways that we can do that is by not allowing the term lessons learned to become problems identified simply. Because what happens when we get these?

Safety Investigation Reports and, um, you know, maybe even training reports from big incidents and things. Typically at the end, there's this list of recommendations, right? There's a whole list of recommendations. We had a significant incident, and this, this is about honoring the sacrifice that others have made.

Uh, we had a significant [00:39:00] incident in 2012 where seven firefighters were burned. One of them, uh, two of them. One of them was burned critically. There was another critical due to an intubation issue that went away pretty quickly, but so there's two critical out of those seven. We had a significant safety, and I was chief of department, we had a significant safety investigation that went forward with that, brought in every alphabet soup you can think of to look into it.

Uh, to make sure that there was no stone unturned, uh, it was the closest thing at the time that I had had as chief of department to a line of duty death. Um, the one, one young volunteer firefighter, uh, was, uh, in a coma for, you know, the first two weeks and, um, ultimately he did, uh, survive the incident, but we had significant recommendations come out of that safety investigation report.

In fact, in total, when it was distilled down, there were 46 [00:40:00] recommendations. The interesting thing, and I knew this going in, okay, the interesting thing was that I knew some of those recommendations had been addressed in previous reports. I'd seen them. I couldn't remember exactly where. So I had staff go back and find all the safety investigation reports that they could find that were similar in nature.

Okay, so a significant fire, residential with injury to firefighters, and I had them compare the lessons learned. They were able to go back 20 years, And in those 20 years, uh, there were 23 of the recommendations out of that particular report, 23 of them, that had been recommendations made in previous safety investigation reports.

So that's 23 recommendations that just became problems identified. They weren't lessons learned, because if they were lessons learned, we would have done something about it. They were just problems identified. [00:41:00] And what did we do with them? We put them on the shelf. And I challenge every fire department out there.

That's going to be doing a safety investigation of a significant incident to do the same thing. Go find your previous safety investigation recommendations and do that comparison. And one of those 23 recommendations resulted in a firefighter fatality in Prince George's County in 1992. So they weren't just nickel and dime fires.

These were significant recommendations that were Um, things we should have fixed and we didn't. So we set about fixing them. And that's how you honor the past of, uh, of what firefighters that came before us have been through is, is you fix what you can fix. Uh, about the problems that they encountered. Uh, sometimes you're not going to be able to fix things, but you do what you can, you don't just identify the problem and move on.

Uh, you have to make it a lesson learned. Uh, so that's, that's one [00:42:00] way, and then two is by making sure that we're, we are, um, uh, rewarding our, uh, firefighters and our EMS personnel for jobs well done, not just on a once a year basis. But that as, uh, those heroic things happen, and maybe it's not a heroic thing, maybe it's a cat in a tree and Grandma Jones sends a letter or sends an email and says, Hey, your firefighters did a great job getting fluffy out of the tree.

Well, you know what? Those firefighters are going to get an email from the chief saying, Thanks for a job well done. You need to honor your firefighters and when they do the right things, just as much as you need to hold them accountable when they don't do the right things. So that honor is, um, uh, you know, a big piece of not only honoring the past, but honoring the present as well.

Love it. Love

Arjuna George: it. Yeah, the lessons learned. That's a, that's a good nugget to share with everyone. Cause I think it's probably happens more than, than we want to. There's

Marc B: at least one [00:43:00] large city department that did a similar after, after we did that, they had a fatal firefighter, line of duty death, multiple line of duty death.

And they did a very similar comparison. In fact, I believe some of our folks went up and were part of that safety investigation team. They did a very similar investigation and found exactly the same thing. So we can't allow that to happen. And I almost guarantee it's all over the country, chief. It's just, it's a nature of our beast and we need to tame that beast because it's going to get us.

That's a great

Arjuna George: nugget.

The Final Message: Self-Rescue and Personal Mission Statements

Arjuna George: So I know our time's coming to a close. I'd love to hear one key message that you'd love to have the Beneath the Helmet listeners hear from you today. What would be that one key message?

Marc B: You know, we need to put ourselves in a position, and my program's called Could You Rescue You?

We need to put ourselves in a position to be able to rescue ourselves. Uh, and what I mean by that is we need to develop our own mission statements, our personal [00:44:00] mission statements. We need to buy into our organizational mission statements. We need to take care of ourselves physically, uh, and understand.

Give me just a minute. Yep.

Okay. Um,

so we need to make sure that, uh, what was I talking about? We were talking about, uh,

Arjuna George: Uh, Lesson you want. So mission statement. Yeah,

Marc B: the mission, the mission. Okay. Health and

Arjuna George: fitness, mind,

Marc B: body. Yep. Yep. So after you've got that mission statement down, firefighters need to make sure that they're taking care of themselves.

And I go back to the triad of the personal success. They need to make sure they're taking care of their physical and nutritional strength, their moral focus and their mental toughness. And, you know, we talk about mental toughness. One thing I want to say, uh, as about mental toughness, You know, we always say it's okay to look.

Hershey! Hershey! Hershey! Come here! Come here! Come here!

Yeah, come sit down. Good girl. Sit.

When, when we, uh, talk about mental toughness, we always say it's, it's okay to not be okay, right? Um, you've, you've heard people say that before. One thing I'd ask people to think about when they, when we think about mental toughness. Uh, taking care of your, uh, mental health. And we talk about counseling or whatever you want to talk about with that.

We don't go into a fire battle by ourselves. Why would we go into a mental battle by ourselves? You know, there, there are opportunities out there to [00:45:00] help you, to help us. Uh, that are within your department and they're outside of your department. Take advantage of those opportunities. You don't have to be in this alone.

Uh, so I, I would take that whole, could you rescue you, have people build that personal mission statement, have people build that personal success tetrahedron, uh, understanding that the mission is, uh, the basis of that. Um, and, and yes, trust, honor, and ethics are the foundation of. That mission, but the mission is the base of the tetrahedron, uh, that they can bring those things together.

Then they're going to be a better them and their organization is going to be better for that.

Arjuna George: Beautiful. Love it, Chief. Uh, we covered some great topics. I think, um, these need to be discussed more in the fire service. And I, I truly think you're, you're, you have a very niche and defined kind of, um, leadership mindset.

I'm sure there's more to this, but breaking it down to those three nice, easy to remember kind of principles for ourselves, I think is, [00:46:00] is key. So well done on that. And thanks for all the work you do in the fire service and for, uh, your time leading up to where you are today and sharing the nuggets in the magazine.

Closing Thoughts and Resources for Firefighters

Arjuna George: So I'd love to plug all the things you're doing right now to finish this off. How can people.

Marc B: Yep, FireRescue1. com, FireChief. com. Uh, I certainly encourage folks to go to www. FireRescue1. com and that's FireRescue1. com or FireChief1. com, uh, or EMS1. com. Um, within the fire side of that, I'm the executive editor for those two and that's just a fancy, uh, title for

Hershey!

That's just a fancy title for I'm the face of that as a chief and I hope to drive that message in the writings that I do and in the video work that we do to help build better fire departments. And then, uh, the, the website if people want to visit it, it's, it's not a tremendous amount of interactiveness to it, but, uh, it's got, uh, links to different things to help [00:47:00] you.

It is you, Y O U, Rescue, the letter U. So, Y O U, Rescue, the letter U, com. And that's my, uh, my site for, uh, drawing together some helpful, uh, hints and, uh, helpful links to, to help people along their, their path. Awesome.

Arjuna George: Yeah. I kind of coined a word in my book, First You Responder. Uh, so various kind of similar processes.

We got to start taking care of number one to be able to take care of Mrs. Smith, right?

Marc B: So. Yeah. And look, uh, look for the book in the future. You, uh, could you rescue you? I don't know what the future will be on that as far as timeline, but I'm working on it. Fantastic.

Arjuna George: Well, Chief, it's been a real honor. Um, I really appreciate connecting with you and sharing your nuggets with our audience.

So I appreciate it.

Marc B: Thanks, Chief. I appreciate your time and, uh, your assistance in helping the fire service grow. Awesome.

Arjuna George: Until next time, stay well.

Marc B: Thank you. 

[00:48:00] Thank you for tuning in to Beneath the Helmet. We hope that this podcast has provided you with valuable insights into the world of firefighters health and wellness. Remember, caring for your physical, mental, and spiritual well being is crucial to achieving optimal performance. Join us next time on Beneath the Helmet for more inspiring conversations.

Until then, stay well.