Jeff Morley

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Introduction to Beneath the Helmet

It is time to ignite your soul and unlock your full potential. Join us on Beneath the Helmet, the podcast Exploring Firefighters health and Wellness. Hosted by Retired Fire Chief Arjuna George. Our podcast is the perfect place to start your journey towards becoming the best version of yourself. So come on, let's join the conversation and find out what sets your soul on fire.

Understanding Psychedelic Therapy for First Responders

arjuna: ou might've seen him at some conferences, uh, speaking about, uh, all sorts of things, but today we're going to talk about something very, uh, unique, uh, and kind of new topic to Canada, all about psychedelics for First Responders.

So welcome to the show, Jeff. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Awesome. So tell our listener about, um, who Jeff Morley is and kind of where you're, where you came from, your background and how you ended up being a psychologist. Well,

Jeff Morley: as you noted, I spent, uh, I have a background in policing. I spent 23 years in the RCMP as a police officer.

So in a variety of different roles there and sort of uniform, plainclothes, big detachments, small detachments, doing some of the [00:03:00] organizational stuff with leadership and conflict resolution. So I've got about 23 years as a police officer that I bring to this topic and I've also been a registered psychologist for the last 20 years.

Uh, so before I retired, I had a part time private practice and since retiring, that's my full time endeavor. So I have a PhD in Counseling Psychology from UBC. I'm a registered psychologist. I'm a board certified expert in traumatic stress. And sort of given the, the First Responder background and the psychology background, a lot of my practice now is basically providing treatment, training, counseling, uh, Critical Incident Stress Management to all kinds of First Responders.

Many firefighters, police, paramedics, I work with soldiers, uh, veterans, uh, different folks, social workers, nurses, basically people whose work, uh, brings them into contact with trauma or the suffering of others. So I get the odd normal person that walks in, but they're usually kind of boring compared to the First Responder realm.

So.

arjuna: I bet, I bet. Whereabouts are you located, or is [00:04:00] this, is this done virtually, or?

Jeff Morley: I'm in South Surrey, uh, you know, Surrey area, and I do some virtually as well. Yeah, okay, great.

tell us a little bit about going from the journey through being an RCMP member to now talking about psychedelics that for a long time have been, has been, you know, taboo to talk about. And I'm assuming as an RCMP member going into this, is there any, was there any kind of challenges that you had of kind of transitioning into this topic

or?

Jeff Morley: Yeah. Well, it's certainly curious to come from a police background where I've arrested countless people for, you know, possessing and dealing and trafficking and in drugs. And, you know, quite frankly, to this day, I continue to see the, the challenges and the risks and the evils and the damage that a lot of drugs do.

That said, you know, it's also curious how some of the research and, um, evolution has been around psychedelic medicines and how those have gone [00:05:00] from sometimes drugs of, um, uh, you know, partying or abuse or things like that now to be seen as quite, uh, potently therapeutic.

The Science and Safety of MDMA

Jeff Morley: So I, I've had a long term interest in some of the psychedelic medicines and as much as they can sort of be taboo in many places in the world, for instance, down like in South America with some of the traditional, um, Shipibo people and others, they use medicines like ayahuasca, that's quite legal down there, and of course now in, in Canada, Health Canada has begun to approve what they call special access permits so that people with treatment resistant PTSD can apply to get access to MDMA, uh, to help with their treatment resistant PTSD.

And that's actually how the research started with it, by the way, you know, uh, Back in the 60s and 70s, there was quite a bit of research being done, often with LSD and psilocybin and a few things to treat, uh, things like alcohol use and other disorders, and then of course [00:06:00] with the war on drugs in the 80s, all that got shut down, including the research.

But, you know, back in the, in the 90s, it started to fire up again with a lot of regulation and everything. But here in Canada, and also a big study in the US, they started to look at people with treatment resistant PTSD. So folks who tried other things, cognitive behavior therapy, you know, antidepressant medications, anti anxiety meds, group therapy, you know, but continue to struggle.

and their systems, their symptoms wouldn't abate. And then that's where the FDA in the States and then Health Canada appear, eventually said, okay, let's give MDMA, ecstasy, a try to see if it will help with those with treatment resistant PTSD. And the research was quite promising. So, you know, the Phase 1 clinical trials, as I understand them, were often about safety.

You know, is there safety? Is there risk? And it shows that it was safe. Stage 2, they really, you know, is it effective? Is it actually [00:07:00] helping? Is it making a difference with these, uh, treatment resistant conditions like PTSD, depression, things like that? And then now they're doing large scale, um, Stage 3 clinical trials, both in Canada and, er, in the U.

1. and some here in Canada, to really better understand. How this medicine works. How does it apply? How's it effective? And clearly the research is showing that it has been quite effective and quite safe. So both Health Canada and the FDA in the States have been speeding up the process to have it become more accessible, uh, as a treatment option for people with treatment resistant PTSD and other conditions.

So

arjuna: treatment resistant PTSD, um, not super familiar with that term, but I'm assuming like you mentioned kind of. You've tried a series of other modalities and other therapies and that just hasn't worked. Who would be the person that would say you are treatment resistant? Would that be your family doctor or who would that

Jeff Morley: be?

That's a good question. I mean, in [00:08:00] terms of prescribing these medications, it requires an MD to do a full assessment and make that determination. That's usually done in consultation with the treating psychologist or, you know, taking an inventory from the person. You know, I've been through a WorkSafe treatment program, or I've been through the Operational Stress Injury Clinic, or I've met with, you know, two psychologists, I've tried this medication, but I'm still having nightmares.

I'm still struggling to go outside. I'm still hyper vigilant. Sirens are still, you know, gives me the shakes. And, you know, you know, I get all sweaty and they're still stuck. Right.

Therapeutic Process and Integration

Jeff Morley: So when we're making a good treatment, You know, effort at a number of these other treatment options, that's when some people may consider whether something like MDMA could help sort of help them heal and access a way to process some of those traumatic memories in a way that traditional talk therapies just can't.

So that's where these medicines come into play. [00:09:00]

arjuna: So for somebody who's maybe had addiction issues in the past, is this a fairly safe, um, option for those? Or is that kind of a slippery slope of, uh, you know, testing with another narcotic?

Jeff Morley: Yeah, that's a good question. Uh, and you know, it's the Curious, by the way, that a lot of these medications are actually used to treat addiction.

You know, uh, Ayahuasca in South America, Ibogaine, a, uh, a plant root from Africa, is even being used to treat quite serious addictions to benzos and other things. So, for the most part, these medications are actually effective in treating addiction. And the research that I've reviewed so far, and even just quite recently, has shown that people who use substances like MDMA in a therapeutic setting rarely become addicted or seek them out outside of the therapy setting.

So they are researching that, because that's a legitimate Question and concern, but so far the research has shown that using [00:10:00] substances in a therapeutic realm does not lead to addiction or abuse outside of therapy.

arjuna: That's good. That's great news. Yeah. So, paint a little picture of what MDMA is. So, Synthetic, I believe, right?

Correct?

Jeff Morley: Yeah, it comes from the Sassafras tree, but they also make it synthetically. So with psychedelics, um, I'll just sort of explain, I think there's different types of psychedelics. There's sort of more traditional psychedelics, LSD, psilocybin, ayahuasca, and often we call those entheogens. They sort of open up the mind and the psyche, even some people have deeply spiritual experiences with these medicines.

You know, MDMA It's not actually a traditional psychedelic where people as commonly might have visuals or, you know, what could be, um, you know, different types of insight, color changes, it's more of what we call an empathogen, as opposed [00:11:00] to being a mind opener, it's a heart opener. So I often call it, it's sort of like a compassion medication.

So very often people can. work through or process a traumatic, um, incident with a big dose of compassion, both for themselves and sometimes for the victims. Sounds like the whole world could use it. Well, I think some people would believe that, uh, you know, so it's that capacity to sometimes, um, process that with new eyes, the new lens with that kind of compassion really seems to help people, um, sometimes forgive themselves or see themselves differently or see the situation through a much kinder and gentler lens, which lets them relax out of some of the PTSD symptoms.

Amazing.

arjuna: So for people who are, you know, still getting treatment and they're not classified as treatment resistant, is there any, any benefit to this or is it kind [00:12:00] of like, um, a last stage effort?

Jeff Morley: Well, I think as we go along right now in terms of the research, it's, you know, Seeing it as a, as a last stage effort as we get going along.

I personally don't think it should be a first stage effort. Psychedelic medicines can also stir up difficult and traumatic memories. So ideally, I think people have done some work, some counseling, some therapy, some cognitive behavior therapy, EMDR. Uh, you know, different strategies, maybe developed a bit of a mindfulness practice, you know, things to help them self regulate.

And at some point they want to have a psychedelic experience as part of their therapeutic journey with lots of integration after. I think it can be very helpful for many people. It's not for everybody, but it does provide sort of an additional option and different, additional technique, especially to break through things where sometimes we feel stuck.

arjuna: And so what was [00:13:00] the purpose of going MDMA versus psilocybin or something like that? What was your reasoning for kind of focusing on MDMA?

Jeff Morley: Well, I do value the traditional, um, entheogens, you know, the psilocybin and the ayahuasca and things like that. And I think they also can help people heal from trauma sometimes in different ways.

So, When I talk about psychedelics, actually, even when we talk about PTSD, I'll take a minute, you know, we talk about PTSD like it's a single thing, like, you know, everyone has the exact same symptoms, right? And I say, look, PTSD comes from even different types of trauma. Sometimes it's difficult childhoods or abuse, abandonment, neglect.

Sometimes it's things that happen off duty, you know, sometimes it's what I call primary trauma, fists are flying, something's going boom, something's on fire, you know. Like, Those are very physiological reactions and we're in harm's way, you know, we're the one at risk. The other common type of [00:14:00] trauma that really leads to PTSD symptoms, compassion fatigue, moral distress, moral injuries, is what I loosely call the secondary or vicarious trauma.

It's about the experience of bearing witness to unfixable suffering. So we're not the ones in harm's way, but it's showing up to those calls of suicides, fatals, um, you know, uh, doing CPR and, you know, they're cold, like this, you know, dealing with the families. So, I find that people, for instance, with PTSD, that comes from like a very first hand threat, primary trauma, often very hyper vigilant, anxiety based symptoms.

But most first responders, police, fire, a lot of our trauma comes more from that secondary and vicarious trauma as well. And that can lead more to the depression, compassion fatigue, some of those negative type symptoms. Definitely. And I think different [00:15:00] psychedelics can treat them a little differently.

Some of the traditional and theogens can help people gain perspective, wisdom, insight, spiritual connection. They may see things through the eyes of God, you know, or nature, or have, you know, different awarenesses even in their physical body. Or things like MDMA. Again, help us heal with that big dose of compassion, sometimes insight, sometimes being able to see things through different eyes that I couldn't see it in before.

Um, so there's both the different types of trauma and the different types of psychedelic medicines and that's what we're trying to, you know, better understand which medicine works for which person with which kind of trauma at which time.

arjuna: Well, it just kind of makes me think in my mind that just messing around with this on your own is probably not a safe alternative, right?

So

Jeff Morley: I also, sorry. I mean, yes, absolutely. These medicines, I take them quite seriously and they are medicines and they need [00:16:00] to be treated that way. I know people are going to do whatever they're going to do off duty, you know, but in, in terms of, uh, the actual therapy. It is MDMA assisted therapy, you know, so you can't factor out the therapy part with the medicine part.

You need both. So, you know, with these sessions, when we do them, there's, there's a number of preparation sessions where we talk about, um, goals and intentions, you know, past history, you know, making sure people are grounded and able to process these reactions. We have the MDMA therapy session, and it's not just an MDMA session, it's an MDMA therapy session.

And then there's the integration after, and sometimes these medicines can stir up. I mean, MDMA is quite positive, uh, but even with MDMA, people can have very intense trauma memories that can be very triggering, sometimes overwhelming. So that's why it's so important to have a good trained and [00:17:00] experienced therapist, not just your buddy sitting with you, you know, or doing it on your own to help you stay grounded and process it and safe and talk you through things of difficult.

arjuna: Can you walk us through, uh, what one of those therapy sessions would look like, like, so you would sit down and how would that, how would that pan out as a day long? Is it an hour? What's, what's to kind of paint a picture of how that looks for somebody who's never

Jeff Morley: done it before? Often, you know, for something like that, we'd start in the morning.

People would take, uh, uh, their dose, you know, the, the medicines now there's a couple of pharmacies in Canada that are approved to provide a pharmaceutical grade and well measured MDMA. So it's all tested and pure and all those things. So they ingest, it comes in a capsule, you, you ingest the dose. Usually takes 30 to 60 minutes before people start feeling the effects.

And during that time we're talking and. You know, sort of processing things when the medicine hits, [00:18:00] uh, some people feel it sort of physically. They may have body sensations. Um, you know, their perceptions may change a bit. Um, and that's essentially where we just continue to talk. Sometimes the person is laying down just to be able to relax.

You know, and we talk through it, sometimes there's periods of silence, maybe where they're sort of making sense or processing an event, sometimes there's periods of music, um, music, it can be incredibly powerful, especially under the effects of a psychedelic. Medicine. So it's the combination of talk, silence, and music are all often aspects of um, psychedelic therapy session.

And usually the medicine lasts sort of fairly significantly for four to six hours. You know, then after that, the rest of the day you're certainly in an altered state. Uh, so I, I certainly tell people to plan to do nothing for the rest of the [00:19:00] day, except be very gentle with themselves. So

arjuna: the client or patient would be very aware the whole time they're not like kind of subdued or they're very alert to what's going on.

Jeff Morley: Yes, I think that's one of the fears that a lot of people have. I'm going to be out of control, or you know, not be able to protect myself, or you know, do what I need to do, but with MDMA for sure, and even a reasonable dose of psilocybin, people can walk, talk, go to the bathroom, you know, they, we don't lose our faculties that way, but it is a way to sort of take a break.

A safe space and a period of time to go inside, you know, pay attention to those memories, thoughts, emotions, reactions, and things like that, but, but not in an uncontrolled

arjuna: way. So how do you manage somebody who's kind of having a bad experience and bringing up lots of trauma? Is that how you just talk through it?

Or is there a way to come out of that natural high? [00:20:00]

Jeff Morley: No, we talk through it and allow people to process their grief and tears, sometimes their anger and rage, sometimes to realize that they were in shock, and then, you know, sometimes something so horrific or shocking happened, they basically dissociate it.

You know, and in the course of the therapy, sometimes they sort of come back into their body and realize what they were feeling, and I was feeling this, and I was feeling that, and even now I notice it, so we'll talk, we'll hold the space, we'll help them process that, and also trust that the medicine, is working.

helps them process it, helps them see that differently, helps them, uh, reframe maybe their own role or what happened there. We also trust the medicine to do a chunk of the therapy as well as the psychologist.

arjuna: So on an average year, how many, how many first responders are you seeing for [00:21:00] this kind of, this kind of work?

Well, this has

Challenges and Future of Psychedelic Therapy

Jeff Morley: only really been legal for less than a year. I don't remember the exact date. So we're just getting started. You know, so we've had a few go through and Health Canada has been good to deal with, you know, and of course get the medical screening and the Health Canada approvals and, you know, schedule the prep, the sessions, the integration, it can take some time.

So it's not something that should be rushed into. you know, I think the fact that it takes a bit of time is healthy, you know, go slow, plan, prep, you know, have a plan here. But yeah, we are rolling and have had some successful ones go through already and hopefully more to come. Uh, right now these medicines are available only through what they call a special access permit.

So each and every one has to go through Health Canada. I suspect in a few years, once the stage three clinical trials have really you know, showing a good evidence base and safety protocols that there will be more, um, convenient ways to be able to access those medicines through a [00:22:00] physician and a trained sitter or psychologist.

arjuna: Beautiful. Beautiful. You mentioned the concept of integration. What does that mean? Is that something that's like months down the road after this, or is that like, you're talking about the day of?

Jeff Morley: Well, well, during the session, but even the days and weeks that follow, you know, it can be helpful to, um, Maybe make sense of things.

It's like, maybe I see that situation differently now. For years, I was holding on to rage against this person, or self blame, you know? Like, I was bad, I made a mistake, I fucked up. Am I allowed to swear on your show? Yeah, go for it. Sorry, it's too late now. I'll go for it. I'll go for it. You know, and now, after this session, I realized, you know, like, actually, there was nothing else I could have done there.

And I'm not hanging on to that same shame or self blame or self hatred. [00:23:00] So it can affect how I see myself in the world. So being able to talk that through and what implications does that have for who I am and how I am as a First Responder, as a Firefighter, as a Paramedic, right? So that's what we talk about with integration.

What's the take home? How does this change who I am and how I am in the world?

arjuna: So yeah, some mindfulness, some gratitude, some meditation, all those things are going to help kind of, kind of clarify your

Jeff Morley: experience, right? Absolutely. So talking it through and certainly those mindfulness practices are really important, you know, whether it's during a psychedelic session or even after when we get triggered.

You know, do we have those skills to ground and be present and notice what's going on for us without beating ourselves up or ramping ourselves up, but to stay grounded in the face of a difficult memory or physiological reaction or some tears or [00:24:00] some anger, you know, how do we hold that, process it, talk it through, honor it without it knocking us too far off our center?

Love it.

arjuna: I hope this is mainstream in a couple of years, well accessible, accessible. Yeah,

Jeff Morley: I think we're getting there and I'm okay, quite frankly, with going slow and step by step and following the research to make sure that we're doing this right. I mean, I think, you know, these medicines again were used back in the 50s, 60s.

They got misused often in the 60s and 70s. So now the clamp down came. So now I think we have to be very systematic, safe. You know, and have a really mindful approach to these things to minimize harm, at the same time making them accessible for people that need them.

arjuna: Where would you like to see this industry kind of evolve into in the next, say, five years in Canada?

Well,

Jeff Morley: I think we need to do a lot more research right here in Canada. I'm certainly trying to drive, it's been a challenge, some research with First [00:25:00] Responders. You know, like even what's the, even the difference within First Responders, Police, Fire, Paramedics, Soldiers, Nurses. And even one of those different types of trauma that I talked about, the primary trauma, the secondary and vicarious trauma, the, the moral injuries, the moral distress, the compassion fatigue, the organizational trauma.

You know, all the stuff that goes on politics and conflict, right, you know, and then how do these different medicines MDMA, psilocybin, LSD, ayahuasca, 5 MeO DMT, how can they help people treat these different So, um, yeah, uh, types of trauma with these different medicines and even within psychedelic therapies.

I just, this past weekend, um, virtually attended the Harvard Medical School, uh, course on, uh, psychedelic therapies and there were even talking about, sort of, even within MDMA, how we can use cognitive behavior therapy or internal family systems or EMDR, or these different [00:26:00] therapeutic, um, models, even within a psychedelic framework.

So I think there's tons that we're learning and developing and putting our mind to through research and science. And I, I'd like to be certainly a part of that, uh, representing our First Responder crews to make sure, you know, our voices are heard in all this. Yeah. Is

arjuna: there any resistance from the First Responder world to this, uh, concept of Psychedelic therapy.

Well,

Jeff Morley: I, you know, to be honest, I keep expecting that, you know, to come out and talk about these medicines with, uh, especially a police audience, let alone a, you know, fire or others. But for the most part, I think it's been well received. I'm sure there's some out there that will think this is complete bogus, you know, behavior.

But, uh, I think more and more people are seeing that like, this is legit, you know, this, this, these are medicines and they help us. And we know the rates of PTSD, anxiety, depression, sleep problems, uh, in our First Responder world are serious. [00:27:00] So when we have potent medicines that actually can help this, I think more and more, it'll take some time.

It'll be more integrated into, um, one of the options for how we help First Responders work through their trauma. Love it.

arjuna: That paints a great picture to me and, uh, definitely something that, um, yeah, I look forward to seeing grow and grow across Canada because I think any tool that we can utilize and if it's, uh, I'm all, I'm all for, you know, thinking outside the box and, and not sticking just with mainstream, uh, narcotics.

Um, Pharmaceuticals, right? To solve the problem. Well,

Jeff Morley: and I'm not against pharmaceuticals, by the way, I mean, the research would say for many people that the best way through PTSD, depression, anxiety is a combination of medications, SSRIs, you know, and therapy. The limit for the SSRIs, as I say, that they're often basically palliative.

They can help you manage your symptoms, but they won't cure you. [00:28:00] And I don't like that. Yeah, I don't like that cure word, but I think the, the, one of the things I think I like about the psychedelics is, you know, two or three sessions right now, the protocol through Health Canada is three sessions. Um, hopefully that brings your PTSD symptoms down enough that you don't need to take your SSRI or, you know, that we can help.

Get that PTSD well treated so that we don't need ongoing, um, medications. Yeah.

arjuna: To me, it sounds like it gets to the root cause versus just putting a band aid on it. That's

Jeff Morley: what we're trying for. Yeah. Beautiful.

arjuna: Beautiful.

Jeff Morley's Personal Insights and Self-Care

arjuna: So you mentioned earlier that you were a trauma certified expert. What does that, how does that, how do you become a trauma certified expert?

Jeff Morley: Yeah, there's a group called the American Academy of Experts in Traumatic Stress, you know, and they're the ones that issue different certifications that I sort of took [00:29:00] part in, but quite frankly, I think that's a piece of paper. How do you actually become a trauma expert? Doing a lot of the work. Nice.

professional development training, specialty training in different techniques and, you know, EMDR and, you know, cognitive behavior therapy, somatic approaches, you know, there's so many different schools of trauma therapy. So part of that is training in a lot of them, part of them having your own experience.

I've done a lot of my own therapy with those things to understand how they work and have an experience of it. And then just time in with a lot of supervision and having a community of support. I've got a crew of other First Responder Psychologists that we meet with, we talk, we support each other, we learn from each other, and I think that's how true expertise develops is over time.

arjuna: Yes, true, true. I mean, you brought it up about somatic work, and I'm a very big believer that a lot of our trauma and stress is stored in our body. What's your thoughts on somatic therapies? And, uh, what would you suggest [00:30:00] for people who want to explore that a little deeper? Any thoughts there?

Jeff Morley: Yeah, well, and like I said, you know, I think that's what I've learned, you know, how do people get through trauma?

Rarely is it one thing. I had six counseling sessions and I'm all better now, or I took this medication or had a psychedelic or this or that, that like, I think the way through trauma for most of us is some combination of things. Mm-Hmm. and maybe that includes some counseling and talk therapy, some cognitive behavior and SSRI, maybe a psychedelic session in there.

And there's also a, a school of um, trauma experts that really focus on somatic psychotherapies. The OMI method, sensory motor integration. Peter Levine's work, um, Pat Ogden's work, and in those, um, trainings and in those modalities, you know, in the counseling session, often we focus on those physiological reactions, how to honour them, process them, stay grounded, go back into the trauma, come back to ground.

So [00:31:00] I think those somatic therapies can be incredibly effective. Some people, their symptoms are very somatic, and that's what they need. You know, others have, you know, really negative thoughts and some cognitive therapy. Some people, they've got difficult behavior. Some people, it's negative self belief.

Some people, it's spiritual distress that's caused as a result of what they've seen or been through. So, I think all these different therapies have, um, medicines to offer us. And it's finding, you know, what do we need, when, at what part in our journey. Yeah. Yeah. I

arjuna: totally agree. Yeah. It's definitely not a one tool fits.

Uh, that's right. Right. So I'm a TRE provider. So attention trauma release exercises, very similar to Peter Levine's work. Where you actually go into a, a neurogenic tremor, um, and releasing stress and trauma in your body. It's, uh,

Jeff Morley: pretty powerful. Yeah, EFT, EFT. Yeah. There's a lot, there's so many, you know, it's hard to even, uh, capture them all.

So [00:32:00] again, I think they're all pieces of the puzzle, right? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

arjuna: So what's in Jeff's self care toolbox?

Jeff Morley: Well, I think one of the key things is certainly having a good home life, have a, you know, a wife and daughter and some furry friends at home. So that certainly helped me trying to stay fit.

And I think the other thing is having a community of support. So, you know, uh, you know, I have certainly other people that share interest in the psychedelic medicine from a therapeutic perspective. My First Responder psychologist colleagues, I think that's so important that we can talk things through, ask questions and have people that, you know, kindly challenge us on our thoughts or thinkings and why that.

So I think they're all pieces of the puzzle. Self care is the same thing. I think we need a lot of things to help with our self care and not just one thing. Couldn't agree more.

arjuna: Yeah. This is a new question I'm asking everyone. What does, what does Jeff need more of support in your life to, [00:33:00] to be a better Jeff in 2024?

Where are some areas in your life that you could use some more support? Well,

Jeff Morley: you know, I, you mentioned sort of, for instance, impacts of trauma on the body, certainly as I've aged, I've noticed that more and more. For me, I think that's a part of it is making sure that I'm actively focusing things on my physical health and making the time to do that.

Not just finding the time, but making the time, finding the time to sort of stay connected with, you know, friends, family, colleagues, you know, making sure that, you know, I'm keeping up in a good way, taking time to read and self develop and explore. And then I think, you know, for all of us, we have to find our own form of, uh, for whatever that word is, spiritual practice.

And I don't necessarily mean that to be religion, but whether that's, you know, yoga practice, mindfulness, whether it's your faith, whether it's sacred drumming or, you know, whatever that is. And certainly for me, making sure that I'm sort of trying to care for myself [00:34:00] in, in multiple ways throughout the coming year.

That's

arjuna: good. Yeah. Very holistic approach. It sounds like. Yeah. So, people often confuse spirituality with religion, kind of put them two to two together, how would you, uh, separate spirituality from religion?

Jeff Morley: Well, that's another big question, but, you know, religion often organize faith, church, temple, you know, a doctorate, and You know, a code, a Bible, a Quran, a, you know, a text, where I think for me, spirituality is more about connection to the divine and something greater than oneself.

And it's interesting because, you know, a lot of these psychedelic medicines, I think, can really facilitate profound spiritual experiences. So, especially medicines. I've had occasion to travel down to South America and work with the Shipibo shamans in the jungle with Ayahuasca. You know, even [00:35:00] through there, it often sounds, uh, curious to describe it to people.

I mean, it's like trying to describe an intense dream to people in the day. It doesn't always do it justice, but even there, you know, having profound experiences of God. the Divine, the Creator. You know, I had a chance, um, through one of these experiences with the, the traditional medicines down there, you know, even to see the world through God's eyes.

And I could see the earthquakes and floods and winter and bodies decaying in the earth. And I could see Babies being born and the sunshine and plants bursting forth and food, you know, you know, all the good things that were in the world. And I think what that did for me, I think it was a profound, to me, spiritual experience.

You know, and it just sometimes allowed me to see certain things in context, [00:36:00] you know, both in my own life, some of the great moments and good things and strengths and advantages I have, and to also acknowledge the trauma and the wounds and the damage that has been done, you know, and try and find a way to sort of keep myself grounded, connected.

and finding a perspective. So to me, that's maybe a one example of what I would call as a profound spiritual experience that I keep with me, that lets me see the world through different eyes that I find helps keep me grounded and comforted.

arjuna: Wow, that's powerful. Yeah, I think there's also a component, you talked about the divine God or someone bigger than us, but I think also spirituality is connected with ourselves too, right?

Which, which you touched on, but connecting with ourselves as a person and who we are, right? I think that's a key part in my life anyways, of how I view spirituality.

Jeff Morley: Well, and I, Hey, say amen to that. And for me, that's often through a lot of the [00:37:00] contemplative practices, the mindfulness and the meditation and certainly, uh, yoga as well, you know, to pay attention and to our bodies, let alone our souls.

So I think there's great tools out there and practices, and we've got to find what resonates for us. You know, what can I actually stick to? Why do I resonate with what's meaningful to me at this stage of my life? Yes.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

arjuna: So what would you like to leave our audience with today? What kind of golden nugget would you love the world to hear, uh, about maybe what you're working on or just, uh, some, some nugget that you'd like to leave our audience with?

Jeff Morley: Well, look, I know your audience is, uh, First Responders, mostly firefighters. Uh, I, just, heartfelt, though I've done the work, I appreciate the work that these folks are out there doing, many of them still active, some of us retired, you know, just the honour for the service, and no, like, look, we know you do difficult work out there, we know that work takes a toll, [00:38:00] I think we're getting better at talking about it and recognizing the impacts of PTSD, anxiety, depression, sleep, addiction, the impact that this work has on our homes and our family lives, let alone our bodies.

So, thank you for doing that work, keep paying attention, and make sure you're being proactive to increase those factors that contribute to your own resilience, and whether that's therapy, or taking a medication, or considering a psychedelic experience, or developing a spiritual practice, you know. You guys are doing tough work out there.

So make sure you're being really proactive for your psychological health, your physical health, your spiritual health, because I want to make sure you're having good, long, healthy careers and long, healthy retirements after that. I'll say amen to that. Yeah. And it's certainly if, if, uh, people have questions about different psychedelics or how did that fit or what's the risk, or is this the right time for me?

You know, there's resources out there and I'm certainly one of them [00:39:00] and happy to answer questions.

arjuna: So where would people look for more information about this? Like, is it safe to just Google it or where would you recommend people

Jeff Morley: look at? You can go to my website, it's called guardianpsychedelics. ca and on that website I have links to credible research sources, Johns Hopkins University, Harvard, National Institute of Health, like respected, uh, you know, resources so that you're getting your information from good, scientific, respected sources.

arjuna: How can people learn more about Jeff and maybe connect with you down the road or anything coming up for you this year? Any speaking engagements or anything you want to share?

Jeff Morley: Yeah, likewise, you can check out the Guardian Psychedelics website or my other 911resilience. ca website. I'm doing lots of trainings, teachings, uh, just got back from some time with the corrections, uh, in Ontario.

Um, got a few things coming up with the fire that We're just looking at actually, um, looking at some options to work with some people just pre [00:40:00] retirement, you know, for firefighters. So how do they drop off some of that baggage they've collected? Or they actually, you know, transition out of the fire service.

So you'll be able to find those things on the website as they pop up.

arjuna: Oh, that sounds very interesting. That sounds like a whole nother podcast episode, maybe.

Jeff Morley: Well, it's a big piece around the retirement because we know sadly a lot of our retirements are a lot shorter than they are for other professions and our life expectancy can be reduced doing this side of work.

So I'm certainly trying to make sure we change that around.

arjuna: Would that be like a psychology practice or would that be a actually psychedelic therapy that you're introducing into that realm of people?

Jeff Morley: I think we're hoping to do some group based, uh, work, you know, with again, firefighters, just pre retirement to sort of help facilitate both peer support and professional support to gain that perspective and drop off some of that trauma baggage before people head into retirement.

arjuna: Love it. Love it. We need that so bad. So bad. Yeah. Great. Well, [00:41:00] Jeff, it's been an honor to sit down and chat with you and kind of share this nugget about psychedelic therapy and trauma and how we can, you know, kind of look at different tools and different options for First Responders across Canada and North America.

So really appreciate that. And I know your expertise is, uh, you know, well, well recognized and appreciate your time on the show today. So thank you. Thanks so

Jeff Morley: much. Thanks so much for having

arjuna: me. Awesome. All right, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this great conversation about how we can use psychedelics potentially in the future for First Responders suffering with PTSD and other, other trauma related things such as anxiety, depression.

So I hope you enjoyed it. Until next time, stay well. All right. What do you